Suggestion to solve issues

We are clearly having some problems with the SGW, and I'd like to address them, and offer one solution to much of it. I'd like to make one thing very clear here, and that's the fact that no side is more to blame than the other here - and the fact that most of the incidents we've seen are MISTAKES, not deliberate attempts to cheat.

Like both sides have been saying over and over and over, we are all into space pvp to have fun - and currently, it's increasingly obvious that neither rebels nor imperials are having fun. We need to do something about this, before people become enemies, and ruin the relaxed attitude that we like chimaera to be famous for.

Let's go through some points:

1) People returning during last man standing:

Rebels have done it. Imperials have done it. I'll go out on a limb here and say: every time this happens, it's a MISTAKE. The fact that it's the cause of so much aggression, clearly indicates that rebels and imperials don't trust each other enough. Unfortunately, this is going to continue to happen. Free return that changes into last man standing, inherently suffers this flaw. Sooner or later someone is going to accidently return, after free return has ended. Piloting is highly stressful, and failing to notice a message in spacepvpchat when you are high on adrenaline is easily done.

2) Timers:

The fact that we need timers is also a source of problems, and a lot of aggression and whining on both sides. We've turned to using macros to avoid the problems - but with loading screens on docking and systems jumps, they are not infallible or reliable. People forget to start timers, sometimes two timers are started by accident. All of these things are of course simpel mistakes - but it's still a source for hard feelings.

3) Legal / Illegal claims:

I don't think there's been even one event yet, without disputes about claims. We had one again tonight. I'll skip the details: the interesting part here is that this again becomes a source of aggression and discussion - with both sides assuming the other is trying to cheat! Clearly rebels and imperials do not trust eachother. If everyone trusted eachother, we wouldn't have been in this situation. The inherent problem of claiming is that it requires TRUST. If one side is claiming - there's no way for the other side to verify that it's legitimate - becuase they are not there!

4) Ganking on spawn points

Again, I'd like to think these are mistakes, not deliberate griefing. As much as it upset me to be ganked on the imperial warpin point, I dropped it, becuase in all likelyhood - it's a mistake. This is going to continue to happen as well, as it's just a matter of time before someone picks the wrong warp-in point by accident.

5) Illegal ships

Once in a while, someone brings in an illegal ship type. Now, of course, the fleet tries to stop this as quickly as possible, and it's usually the result of some horrible misunderstanding or prank - but it generally ends up with one side blaming the entire enemy fleet for the actions of one person. Another problem here is the fact that in combat, we don't target our own ships - only enemy ships. We don't notice if someone is flying illegal ships on OUR side, only if they fly for the enemy - and that usually leads to accusations, calls for confirmation, bla bla bla...

6) Rounds in disguise

Rebels do it, Imperials do it. "Ok, there's 3 minutes on the timer, don't return! Form up the fleet, and let's go in full force!" This happens a lot. 1 minute before the timer reaches the claim point - an entire fleet warps right in, turning it basically into a turn based fight.

Potential Solution:

I know there's been a lot of resistance to turn-based fighting, and a lot of people that prefer free return, but still, consider this:
1) Turn based fighting means there will be no problem with people returning when they shouldn't. Everyone KNOWS that once you are dead - you are out, end of story.
2) Timers. No need for timers in turn-based combat.
3) Claims. Again - a non-issue. There are no claims. You win when one side says "ok, we are all dead".
4) Spawn point ganks - a non-issue. Everyone knows that once they die - they are OUT. People that are out don't shoot people until the next round starts.
5) Illegal ships. Well, turns won't stop it, but at least we'll be able to notice before they enter combat. As we gather our fleets on our spawn points, we get a chance to SEE what our team mates are flying - and it gives us a chance to nip this in the bud.
6) Turns, well, yes. We are doing turns. Only now, it's intentional.

Ok, so maybe everyone don't like turn-based combat. I understand that. It would however solve pretty much all of the problems we are having. We've done free return for a while now and I've heard both sides say it: "This is not fun." We've tried turn based once - and it had no problems. Now after a few weeks we clearly see what the free return is like - and no one is having fun. I'm basically asking a simple question here:

Is turn based combat so horrible, that we prefer the current drama of free-return? Shouldn't we at least try turn based for two weeks, and see what happens?

Iasod

first hour of the sunday event is "turn based". 2nd hour is "free return". the first hour is just annoying because we all, especialy the pilots who are IN DS AT THERE FACTIONAL STATION AT 20.00 gmt (thats when the event starts, right?), just have to wait too long until every single pilot is ready. the order to fly to center is given at e.g. 20.25. but isnt the event start at 20.00?

then this is what happend to me on one event: 20.25 command to attack. 20.27 i see the first enemies. obviousely didnt pay enough attention, so 20 seconds later im shoot out of ds, which would be ok, but then the waiting for an other 25 minutes until 2nd round starts is just f.... annoying. so all in all 55 minutes waiting 5 minutes fighting for me during the first hour. i have posted that somewhere on the soe forum, an imp and reb groupleader agreed to try to speed up rounds, but i didnt notice any change.

my suggestion is to simplify "free return" rules.

imo iasod, you have been against "free retun" from the very beginning of the sgw. and now you try to find reasons to validate why "free return" doesnt work. imo non of your reasons (why free return doesnt work) are valid, i will give my opinion on each of your points.


1) People returning during last man standing:
Ok, it has happend. Ok, it can happen ppl dont see the "last man standing" line in spacepvpchat, or dont know what this "last man standing" means. Now if we dont see a single "last man standing" line in the chat, then the macro displaying it, could be easy modified to spam this, e.g. all 10 seconds during that phase. groupleaders could comunicate that on voice. if ppl dont know what "last man standing" means: a) post the rules on the chimaera form too b) ask faction leaders to make a briefing 20 minutes before event start to explain rules to pilots of there faction. but imo the question is why do we have a "last man standing phase"? e.g. sunday event does have "free return" during the 2nd hour and doesnt have "last man standing phase" but it still works. so my suggestion is remove "last man standing", that would simplify rules.

2) Timers:
why timers? i know i havent participated on sundays regularly, and there maybe are reasons for timers, then please tell me. sunday event (as far as i know) doesnt have timers during "free return". points are given at x.20, x.40, x.00 - or was it x.15, x.30, x.45, x.00? so to simplify rules i suggest no macro based timers. just synchronize watches at the beginning of the event. fixed times would also reduced wait time until everyone is ready to start macro timers.

3) Legal / Illegal claims:
ppl are not there, so they cant verify that the other group has claimed the point legitimate. ok, but where is the difference here between "round based" and "free return"? i dont see that, so i dont see that as reason why to move from "free return" to "round based". the only solution for "legal / illegal claims" problem, would be imo a referee, who is uninvolved, not declared, impartail.

4) Ganking on spawn points
first: you are mixing up "the imperial warpin point" with the "battle point".

this was in the description of the event:

System : DATHOMIR
REBEL jump point : DARK FORCE
IMPERIAL jump point : DATHOMIR'S VITALITY
Start cadran : EMPEROR'S HAND

was there a reb siting at "dathomir's vitality" to gank you? i dont think so, would be quiet foolish.

second: i have see you iasod to jump to the "battle points" directly. jumping there is your choice, no rules says you have to jump there. you can jump to "dathomir's vitality" and then fly to the "battle point".

third: im quiet sure that there is a short time during that i can fly and evade before im marked as enemy to you after jumping. i would also like to test this with you. you declare, jump to dath emperor's hand. you tell me that you are there. i will jump there and we see if i can move/evade before you can damage me.

5) Illegal ships
again, faction leaders do a briefing 20 mins before the event starts, explain the rules. i know, if ppl refuse to follow rules faction leaders cant do anything agains it, no matter if round based or free return.

6) Rounds in disguise
you are absolutly free to group the full fleet for an attack, and then somehow turn "free return" into something more "turn based". no rule says something different. but you need to do that within the given time.
round based = round based
free return = round based (with time limits) + free return = more fighting, less waiting


as i allready argued, simplify the free return rules, dont turn this into a boring, extended duration and waiting, sunday 1st hour event. to simplify the rules i also suggest to fight at only one hyperspacepoint and not change it during the event.

cheers
marabas

Quote :

4) Ganking on spawn points
first: you are mixing up "the imperial warpin point" with the "battle point".

this was in the description of the event:

System : DATHOMIR
REBEL jump point : DARK FORCE
IMPERIAL jump point : DATHOMIR'S VITALITY
Start cadran : EMPEROR'S HAND

was there a reb siting at "dathomir's vitality" to gank you? i dont think so, would be quiet foolish.

Thank you for calling me an idiot and a liar, even after the ganking was witnessed by another player. What's worse is that you feel the need to attack me personally, for offering a suggestion made with the best of intentions. I'll make sure not to do it again.

You have amply proven my point though. It's all hostility and accusations, and I'm sick to death of it.

I'm done here. Good luck with the SGW.

that would be cool to not end up in another drama, and a war of personal attacks here, we're trying to work around an event, wich cannot be made by one side only, we all need to find ways to understand and help each other, for the good and the fun of everyone.
ok i'll just add put my 2 cents ...

1) changing into round-based battles, or removing "last man standing" point, we'll reach the same result, we won't have anyone coming back when they're not supposed to. So no matter what solution we choose, we'll end up with the same result.

2) timers ... they are needed, as long as both sides don't trust each other. There were isssues in the past, on SGW, and on sunday battles about that. Running the same macro on both sides came up as the best and easier solution to make sure both side are watching the same clock. The only way to get rid completely of time issues is to go back to round-battles. Free return points are based on timers, if we can't make sure the timers are right, we cannot say if the other fleet's claim is legitimate or not.

3) it's obvious that if one side claiming, it means that most likely all the other side has been destroyed, leaving no witness to confirm it. If there's still someone fighting at the set point when a side is claiming, then the defending side has to shout clearly that he's still fighting ... (voice to fleet leader, to forward to spacepvp ... as to make the info public quickly) ... if no one is contesting the claim, then how can't it be legitimate?
Your idea of a neutral judge may be wise, but we cannot ask anyone to attend the battle and do nothing but count points. It's a pretty much boring task, though important and needed, is asking a bit too much to the person that would do it.
And that would only push the problem a bit forward. You see that in sports almost every day ... is the judge trustworthy? ... there are always people contesting the judge's decisions...
I'd say we'd better stop arguing and try to understand and work all together in the same way ... trying to trust each other a bit more. Before tramsitting that trust into a new guy who would just sit there, counting points between 2 sides who are not talking to each other?

4) just to make it clear, i was flying back to dathomir vitality while i got a report from there stating that a rebel was camping our spawn point. I made myself ready when i jumped in, boosted out to dodge the guy i actually found patrolling below 1500 m around our spawn point. I chased him and took him down. I won't name him again here, but i named him last night on spacepvpchat when arnox asked for it.
For the direct jump at battle point, i experienced it myself last night. If you start your hyperdrive calculations, wait a bit, and declare just before you jump, you will have a few seconds (depending on your loading time) of "on leave" time in battle zone, letting you fly away. If you declare before jumping, you get ganked on loading screen.

5) all the pilots flying with a dsin tag are aware of the rules, i'm telling them, made some reminders and so on. Now my "power" in this fleet is virtual ... and i cannot force anyone to do anything ... If i see someone leave our group during the battle then log off ... We continue the fight ... if the guy is coming back with his alt character who isn't registered as a DSIN pilot, and is flying an illegal ship ... i just can ask him politely to switch when someone report me about it ... but please tell me what else can i do ?
If you have a clue, i'm interested tbh ...

6) what you say about waiting 20 minutes for 20 seconds of flight, is true in round base and free return ... only difference is you're not "waiting" as such in free return, you're flying away to repair, re-declare, re-start your computer, re-group. At the end, it almost always ends up as 3 minutes before point the weaker fleet regroup for a massive attack, on the other side that's holding the point, for a full fleet opposition, on last man standing ... what's different with a round-based battle here ?
The only difference is we have a timer to tell us when to move.
If we were a bit more organized on each of our sides, to make all pilots ready again quickly, we could reduce the "waiting phases" a lot.


And maybe yeah, only One quadrant to fight in ... on only one day/week ? i think we should focus one only one event so far, make it work good, then if we see there's really some demand on more events like that, then add other days in week for it ... less rules discussions, more action, and more fun for everyone !

I gotta say there were still some good fights last night, once again epic, despite these little arguments, all based on mistakes i agree ... we gotta focus on the fun we're trying to share, more than other things,

*salutes*

Uriko

Uriko wrote:

that would be cool to not end up in another drama, and a war of personal attacks here,

not in a single word i made personal attacks towards iasod. no idea where he has that from. he is actualy starting the drama in this thread and is totaly overreacting. and now accusing me of personal attacks is wrong.

1) uriko, we agree

2) still dont understand the need for macro timers in "free return" mode. what kind of problem is there when we say points are given at e.g. 20.20 and 20.40 and 21.00 and 21.20 and ... well just always each 20 mintes or each 15 minutes after the official start time of the event? please explain.

3) i dont say we need a referee, i just say "Legal / Illegal claims" is not a vaild argument to change from "free return" to "round based" system

4) ok, i was wrong, there was a reb sitting at the dath vitality. and he was foolish to sit there. e.g. would i be at the imp spawn point in ds while all the rebels are waiting at the reb station until the fight starts? no way, loads of imps would surround me very fast and kill me. and as you write uriko, that reb pilot got destroyed there, probably fast, and probably leard the lesson.

5) as i allready wrote: "if ppl refuse to follow rules faction leaders cant do anything agains it, no matter if round based or free return." this is again no reason to change to "round based".

Uriko wrote:

6) what you say about waiting 20 minutes for 20 seconds of flight, is true in round base and free return ... only difference is you're not "waiting" as such in free return, you're flying away to repair, re-declare, re-start your computer, re-group.

no you are wrong, if i get destroyed within the first 20 seconds of the fight, i can get back immediately in "free return" i dont have wait for the next round. re-start my computer, re-group - what are you talking about?

Uriko wrote:

6)
At the end, it almost always ends up as 3 minutes before point the weaker fleet regroup for a massive attack, on the other side that's holding the point, for a full fleet opposition, on last man standing ... what's different with a round-based battle here ?
The only difference is we have a timer to tell us when to move.

well thats exactly what i write, you can still wait to group in "free return", but you are forced to hurry up because of the timer.

Considering what happened recently within the space community of chimaera, leading it to a kind of drama that had never been seen before, and even forcing Voldragon to leave our fleet to help the rebel alliance.

I've decided to disengage the DSIN Fleet from the SGW events, at least temporarily.

The fact is since these events have started, the community as a whole started to suffer from problems that we had never seen so far. I beleive, and i'm not alone to think so, that the SGW events are taking a part in the deterioration of the ambience within the community.
Because they were based on rules that were a bit unclear, or not always rightly followed (and that stands for the imp side AND the the reb side too), and around that "win at all cost" mentality, that pissed many of our pilots.

So the best thing to do actually is take a break from that, and try to sort the problems before we can go on in good conditions I hope you understand that.

Within the DSIN, we will focus on our usual weekly battle of sunday, and make use of the rest of the week to re-organize ourselves.

*salutes*

Uriko

Uriko wrote:

And even forcing Voldragon to leave our fleet to help the rebel alliance.

I don't think so, A majority of rebel pilots don't want Voldargon to switch, and the fact he comes to rebel side generate more drama than help. He knows all of this. After a last rebel meeting, it's clear that Voldragon only fly on our side as rookie pilot.

I don't think the rebel alliance need help from imps, as explained in my post on the Chim forum, we won a lot of victories since the beginning of the year, so where the problem ?

Uriko wrote:

I beleive, and i'm not alone to think so, that the SGW events are taking a part in the deterioration of the ambience within the community.

In this point I have a different vision, again. That's just showing that some imp don't understand the current situation. The problem is older than the SGW beginning.

Uriko wrote:

and around that "win at all cost" mentality

Really ? Explain us why every sunday when rebels win the beginning of the sunday event, you're calling for imperial Reinforcements ? Like the XRKUN, I'm sure it's not in a "win at all costs mentality"...

Uriko wrote:

I've decided to disengage the DSIN Fleet from the SGW events, at least temporarily.

As explain earlier a lot of imps pilots will be glad to participate this event, I note the DSIN disengagement but the SGW will continue this week. Any pilot is welcome, if he respect rules, and want to have fun.

Uriko wrote:

And make use of the rest of the week to re-organize ourselves.

concidering the past victories of the Alliance, I'm sure you need to reorganize a bit the DSIN, recruit and form pilots for example.*

*Regards from the Sands*

Arnox

I wasn't present for any of this so called "drama" but usually, in war, Opposing sides do not talk to each other.
In space we are at war, on the ground however, I feel no quarrel. What happens in space stays in space. The rules of engagement Arnox has laid out for us to follow seem quite simply. I understand that the people who break rules like spawn ganking and illegal ships should be dealt with accordingly. Say a ban from SGW for an amount of time? Again, I wasn't present for any of the drama but that is my opinion and I am voicing it.

Was a long time ago... Since they'll created more imaginativ dramas . Hopefully The Sand Cup will be a drama-free event. Any pilot signing for sub will accept the rules. Referees, after brief judgement wil be allowed to kick Drama users from the Cup. Letting us with challenge and sport .